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Post by Chloe G. on Feb 5, 2014 3:19:50 GMT
Analise M. Said:
What does it mean to know?
"how old are you?"
"Fifteen"
"No you're eighteen"
"But, I'm fifteen"
"Fool, listen to what I say"
This was a conversation between Elie and a man who had been living the the Aushwitz camp for a while now. Luckily Elie (and his father) listened to the man and did as he said. When the guards came around Elie told them that he was eighteen and a farmer. The guards then put him (and his father) Into the line to work and not to die. The man KNEW what he was talking about and luckily Elie and his father listened to him. To know really means to really understand what is going on. The man KNEW what was going to happen to them if they didn't do what he had said. Elie and his father didn't know what was going to happen to them, so thank goodness they ended up listening to the man, The man had just saved their lives.
What does it mean to believe?
"Yisgadal veyiskadash shmey raba"
"May his name be celebrated and sanctified"
Elie's father repeats the "prayer" to the Jewish Gods. He BELIEVES that the Jewish Gods will come and help him, his son, his family, and his friends, be strong enough to survive this and make it out alive. Honestly, at the moment, I don't think Elie believed he would get out alive. I think he hoped he would though. Elie says in the book that he is questioning his faith because if there really was a God then why isn't he helping them out of this situation? As for Elie's father, he BELIEVES that if he continues to pray he will stay strong long enough to survive. To believe really means to have a little bit of hope. For Elie and his family believing is having the hope to get out of Aushwitz survivors.
What does it mean to be "mad" (Crazy)
"Look at the fire, look at the flames...flames everywhere"
This is said my Mrs. Schachter. She is a woman who does not know where her family is, and is going crazy. She is hungry, tired, thirsty, and doubtful that she will ever see her family again. Unfortunately she begins to hallucinate and begins to see a fire. She won't stop screaming no matter what. It comes to the point where grown men have to strike her in order to keep her quiet. At first the people with her feel bad for her saying she is a "poor woman" but after a wile they realize that she has gone MAD. To go mad means that you have gone crazy. It means that you are completely out of it and cannot handle yourself even more. It is almost as if you are in a simulation, you just aren't yourself and cannot control yourself anymore.
The quotes you chose from the book fit very well into your explanations. You elaborated on what it truly means to be these 3 characteristics.
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Post by Kendall P. on Feb 5, 2014 4:42:10 GMT
Knowing, belief, and madness are three different perceptions of the same thing. Much like 'savoir' and 'connaitre,'there are different levels to knowledge, but these levels are not divided, but connected. Each stage can lead to another and you have to have one level to make the others. All three are based on opinions and perceptions from the five senses.
Knowledge is fact. Facts can be proven. However, facts are based on perceptions and comparisons of what humans detect with their five senses. For example, it is a fact that frogs have a clear eye lid that acts like a goggle so they can see under water. Using our eye sight, we have observed the frog and seen the film sliding over the eye before the frog enters the water. We then look at what we know- goggles allow people to see under water, and believe that the purpose behind the film is the same as the purpose of goggles. Although we have not been able to ask a frog or become a frog to see if this hypothesis is correct, it is a fact. Perceptions have to be proven by many people to become knowledge. In other words, knowledge is a sense perceived by many.
Belief is a common perception with acceptance being the main drive. Belief is a choice shaped by personality, defining moments, and surroundings. For example, many people believe in God, that he will come back and take those who have worshipped him. They believe the tales from the Bible and that God is the highest. However, some people choose to believe in Allah (Islam) or Vishnu (Hinduism) or whatever highest deity or god-like being is. These people have accepted these beliefs, even though there is not much proof behind it and not everyone accepts them.
Madness is belief to the point of desperation. When you reach the point of madness, your beliefs become a veil, making you believe that they are the only way. Madness is a mind closed off to all possibilities. Madness is the point where beliefs are used to justify actions. This can be pointed to Radical Islam. Much like the old Catholic Church, Radical Muslims believe that their religious system and beliefs is the only way to go through life. This is the veil. Prophets, crusaders, and church goers alike all used their belief in something to justify an action. No one knows that a prophet is telling the true word of a deity, but they know that this person ‘was told’ that it is the only way. When madness takes over, a sense of desperation enters the person, and when no one listens, the person resorts to violence to gain attention and prove their point.
Knowledge, belief, and madness can be seen in both Moishe the Beadle and Mrs. Schächter (whom I currently do not have enough time to write about).
Moishe saw the children and women being shot. He knows what is going on behind the closed walls of the Nazis. Other people see this as merely a belief, no one else has returned to prove him correct or incorrect. When Moishe realizes people have stopped listening to him, he begins the final transition into madness. At first he becomes desperate for people to follow him, and then the veil of belief becomes opaque and he sees no other way but to make people listen. Desperation makes people even less obliged to agree and listen. Hearing the same story over and over is just like watching a movie over and over, you notice different things each time that make it less and less believable.
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Post by Ashley P on Feb 5, 2014 4:43:35 GMT
What does it mean to know?
To know is that you want to believe it but you just want to hear something good for once so you disbelieve whatever someone (trusting or mad) tells you. Its almost like when someone close to you or impacted you in some way dies. You don't want to believe they died, so you can't find closure. But to at least acknowledge that they have passed away influences the start of closure and you can finally find it. In the book Elie says that "Mrs. Schachter had lost her mind"(page 24). That may have been true because her family left on an earlier train and she knew what was happening but she nor did anyone else want to believe her. And once she finally broke they all called her crazy but once they saw the fire they knew that maybe there was something else to her, not just madness.
What does it mean to believe?
To believe is when you know that something good will come out of something you have or are doing. You can believe in the true or fake. Sometimes believing that something good will happen, does happen. But other times believing just wastes more of your time when you should be saving yourself. Like when the Jews didn't want to get out of Germany, they still believed that there would be a sign and then they'd be able to get out. But after Crystal Night had happened (the beginning of the torture) it was too late to get out. They had held onto their beliefs for too long. And in the book Elie states that their "Confidence soared. Suddenly we felt free of the previous nights' terror." (page 27). They all had believed they ended up in a better place (Auschwitz) and they would maybe have it a little better than the cattle car... But as I said before, they held onto their beliefs for too long and couldn't get out soon enough.
What does it mean to be "mad" (crazy)?
To be mad is to be mentally insane. You can be crazy as in fun, but to be crazy as in mad you need to be pronounced mentally mad by a doctor. An example is that people get put into institutions because they are seeing and hearing things because someone or something has broken them on inside to go mad. But in the book, Elie says that no one believed Mrs. Schachter. They didn't believe her because what she was saying wasn't true at all. Until they arrived to Birkenua. They all had deemed her as the mad one that knew nothing because her family left her and she was so sad that her mental thoughts snapped.
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Post by Mikaelah H on Feb 5, 2014 11:53:09 GMT
I think knowing is when you have a strong belief and have something to support it. I think belief is when you are taking a leap in the dark. No evidence of where you are going, but you think, you believe it is the right way. I think madness is more about who believes you. If you are mad then you have no credibility because you can't think about anything, but the thing driving you mad. Mrs. Schachter on the train believed that she had seen the fire, even though there was no evidence. Everyone on the train knew that there was nothing there because they looked and saw nothing. "Some pressed against the bars to see. There was nothing." She was thought as a mad woman because she had her husband and two older left on another train and "The separation had totally shattered her." People thought she had just been an emotional wreck and they just said "She is mad, poor woman..." Good link from Belief and Knowing into Madnness. |
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Post by Mikaelah H on Feb 5, 2014 12:00:24 GMT
Knowing, belief, and madness are three different perceptions of the same thing. Much like 'savoir' and 'connaitre,'there are different levels to knowledge, but these levels are not divided, but connected. Each stage can lead to another and you have to have one level to make the others. All three are based on opinions and perceptions from the five senses. Knowledge is fact. Facts can be proven. However, facts are based on perceptions and comparisons of what humans detect with their five senses. For example, it is a fact that frogs have a clear eye lid that acts like a goggle so they can see under water. Using our eye sight, we have observed the frog and seen the film sliding over the eye before the frog enters the water. We then look at what we know- goggles allow people to see under water, and believe that the purpose behind the film is the same as the purpose of goggles. Although we have not been able to ask a frog or become a frog to see if this hypothesis is correct, it is a fact. Perceptions have to be proven by many people to become knowledge. In other words, knowledge is a sense perceived by many. Belief is a common perception with acceptance being the main drive. Belief is a choice shaped by personality, defining moments, and surroundings. For example, many people believe in God, that he will come back and take those who have worshipped him. They believe the tales from the Bible and that God is the highest. However, some people choose to believe in Allah (Islam) or Vishnu (Hinduism) or whatever highest deity or god-like being is. These people have accepted these beliefs, even though there is not much proof behind it and not everyone accepts them. Madness is belief to the point of desperation. When you reach the point of madness, your beliefs become a veil, making you believe that they are the only way. Madness is a mind closed off to all possibilities. Madness is the point where beliefs are used to justify actions. This can be pointed to Radical Islam. Much like the old Catholic Church, Radical Muslims believe that their religious system and beliefs is the only way to go through life. This is the veil. Prophets, crusaders, and church goers alike all used their belief in something to justify an action. No one knows that a prophet is telling the true word of a deity, but they know that this person ‘was told’ that it is the only way. When madness takes over, a sense of desperation enters the person, and when no one listens, the person resorts to violence to gain attention and prove their point. Knowledge, belief, and madness can be seen in both Moishe the Beadle and Mrs. Schächter (whom I currently do not have enough time to write about). Moishe saw the children and women being shot. He knows what is going on behind the closed walls of the Nazis. Other people see this as merely a belief, no one else has returned to prove him correct or incorrect. When Moishe realizes people have stopped listening to him, he begins the final transition into madness. At first he becomes desperate for people to follow him, and then the veil of belief becomes opaque and he sees no other way but to make people listen. Desperation makes people even less obliged to agree and listen. Hearing the same story over and over is just like watching a movie over and over, you notice different things each time that make it less and less believable. Great Analysis of the terms, and amazing examples like 'savior' and 'connaitre' and the different levels of knowledge. AMAZING job! |
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Post by Nate S on Feb 5, 2014 12:34:51 GMT
To know means that you are sure of a fact and have evidence to prove it. In the real world, people know of facts that have been proven and they have evidence to prove them. Like historical events. People know that Abraham Lincoln was a President, because they have evidence to prove it.
To believe is to have hope and to think and to trust an opinion, concept, idea, or theory. In the real world, people believe in concepts, theories, religions, and ways of life. People believe in these, because they hope for these concepts to be true, although they may have some evidence, they don't have enough to know for a fact that these things happened.
Madness is when someone thinks they know of something that the majority of others know is not true. In the real world, people become mad whentheir brain becomes damaged, and then it can't function properly. This leads them to thinking they know things that are not real. There are mental hospitals, and asylums for people with serious and threatening brain damage.
Elie knows that the babies were thrown into the fire by the Nazi soldiers, because he saw them with his own eyes. He says: "Babies! Yes I did see with my own eyes... Children thrown into the flames!"
Elie believes the inmates when they tell him: "The most important thing is not to be assigned to the construction Kommando." He has never seen the conditions, so he does not know, but he believes.
People thought Mrs.Thatcher was mad, because she yelled: "Fire! I see fire!", But outside, there was no fire for others to see. She is mad, because she thinks she knows something that others know does not exist.
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Post by J.P. on Feb 5, 2014 14:37:18 GMT
Knowing: Stating that you know something is real or something has happened that you have an eye witness account or actual objects or places of the account or fact. "Jews, listen to me." she cried. "I see a fire! I see flames, huge flames!" This is an eye witness account of fire in the distance of the crematorium
Belief: It is like what you have thought of what you have known to be true your whole life but don't have evidence of your belief. Like believing in god, or santa claus.
Madness: Going over and beyond belief. "She is hallucinating because she is thirsty, poor woman... That's why she speaks of flames devouring her..."
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Post by Kiran G. on Feb 5, 2014 20:32:50 GMT
Knowing is having a solid reason for why you know this thing. When you know something, then in your mind you will have a list of reasons on why you know this. This list could be called a list of evidence or reason. When you believe something, you have no evidence, just statements. This is like a theory or a hope. The difference between knowing and believing is having evidence. Madness is the rejection of reality, the extreme belief that something that is obviously false is indeed true. The difference between beleiving and madness is madness is when you know in the back of your mind that it is true, so one is more extreme then another. I agree. When you are mad (crazy), you are confused with your own thoughts and reality. You can't tell what is real and what is not. That is why we classify people who can't distinguish reality "mental", because they have mind issues. |
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Post by Kiran G. on Feb 5, 2014 20:37:29 GMT
To know means to have knowledge of a specific subject. For example, you know that there is a pop quiz tomorrow in your class. But you are the only one since you over heard the math teacher talking about it with the other teachers in the break room. I can connect this to Night by on page 30 of Night, a inmate walked up to Elie and asked for his age. Elie replied back with "I am fifteen." When the inmate heard this, he frowned and told Elie: "No. Your eighteen." Now this slightly confused Elie. Why would that man want him to say a different age then he is now? Well that meant the inmate knew something that everyone else did not know. What he knew was practically life and death situation. When that was over, he then went up to one of the Nazi workers. He asked "What is your age?" And Elie replied back with "Eighteen". Now if he had said his actual age, he could have been sent to one of the gas chambers or even the crematorium. To believe means to have a belief in a specific subject. For example, you believe that your school's sports team will win the game tonight. But another student may believe that they will lose. A connection from this from Night is that on page 26 from Night Is that when Mrs. Schacher had begun to lose her sanity and started to hallucinate. One of the men there grew furious that the woman had been having constant illusions. So he believed if they had hit her or pinned her down, she would stop for good. This cause all the men to gang up on her and hit her several times until she stopped. She did stop for the rest of the time until camp. To be mad/insane/crazy Is when the victim of the madness can not tell reality and fantasy apart, meaning not knowing whats real and what is not. A example of this is that you have gotten news that your mother was murdered. You deny this, thinking it was some cruel joke by someone. You later realize it was not a joke and you can still not tell if the situation was true or not. I can connect with this from Night on multiple pages in fact! There were a lot of actions made by the characters that they could not tell the cruel reality from the fantasy. One example is pages 24-26 when Mrs. Schacher had in fact started to lose it. When that happened, she first shut herself out from everyone, then on the second day, she had a mix of sobs and uncontrollable laughter. Then the last time she started to hallucinate visions of fire. People at first were shocked, but soon shock was quickly replaced with anger. Another example of madness is on page 37, Elie was doubting the reality and was thinking it was a dream. ~Samantha Collins 2/4/14 Knowing also can mean to encounter it and to be there to see it with your own eyes. Knowing can also mean that other people know about it too. Knowing is also supported by facts and real evidence. So maybe, you know you had a pop quiz tomorrow because your teacher told you and our whole class. Since other people know too, you can use them as evidence and witnesses. |
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Post by Kyrsten E. on Feb 5, 2014 21:33:14 GMT
Believing: When you believe in something, it is the exact opposite from 'knowing' something. Everyone believes in different things, and what they believe in, they think that theyare right, but it doesn't matter who is right because it is your belieifs and it is something that can't really be proved wrong. You don't need lots of evidence, it is just a simple belief what defines kind of who you are. This can go from religion, because especailly since our school is a world school, we have all kinds of different people who believe in all different things. Religion plays a big part in the person you are, and we can't tell someone they are wrong, because it is a belief, and how do we know that anything they believe is right or wrong? We also cannot judge someone for what they believe, because it is something that is a part of them and we can't change that. Take Santa Clause for example. I used to believe in Santa Clause because every movie during Christmas time is revolved around Santa and my parents always told me that he was real and while reading the book the night before Christmas, I believed it was real. Same goes with political problems, like gay marriage which I don't think should even be a political problem. People should let people love who they want to love, because they cannot control it. Whether you are a girl loving a girl, a guy, or a guy loving a guy, I don't think it should really be a big issue, but it is because not everyone agrees with this. Some people are really against it, and others not so much.
Quote: The past seems to have been erased.
I think that this goes with believe because when he told this story, along with things on the interent people have read, not everyone believes that this happened, and everyone seems to forget about it.
Madness: Madness is when you get frustrated, and it could be over the littlest things in life, a relationship, jealousy , a friend, parents, or endless possibilites. It's when you are at home, maybe getting so easily frustrated because you have way too much homework so you cannot go out with a friend. It could be something small, to something big, like your parents getting divroced. I relate this to the real world with relationships. You don't really know what it feels like to get your heart broken, until you actually do, I think. Everyone experiences relationships differently. You could go crazy, mad, because someone you were completley in love with, just broke your heart. People deal with these things every single day, and it is horrible to deal with for most people.
Quote: "Idek was on edge, he had trouble restraining himself."
Idek went mad easily, over such a little thing, like I said madness could be over. Just because Elie's father wasn't working right, he was beaten by Idek. Most of the time when people go mad, they usually have a story behind why they act this way.
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Post by Kyrsten E. on Feb 5, 2014 21:36:31 GMT
Believing: When you believe in something, it is the exact opposite from 'knowing' something. Everyone believes in different things, and what they believe in, they think that theyare right, but it doesn't matter who is right because it is your belieifs and it is something that can't really be proved wrong. You don't need lots of evidence, it is just a simple belief what defines kind of who you are. This can go from religion, because especailly since our school is a world school, we have all kinds of different people who believe in all different things. Religion plays a big part in the person you are, and we can't tell someone they are wrong, because it is a belief, and how do we know that anything they believe is right or wrong? We also cannot judge someone for what they believe, because it is something that is a part of them and we can't change that. Take Santa Clause for example. I used to believe in Santa Clause because every movie during Christmas time is revolved around Santa and my parents always told me that he was real and while reading the book the night before Christmas, I believed it was real. Same goes with political problems, like gay marriage which I don't think should even be a political problem. People should let people love who they want to love, because they cannot control it. I don't think it should really be a big issue, but it is because not everyone agrees with this. Some people are really against it, and others not so much. Quote: The past seems to have been erased. I think that this goes with believe because when he told this story, along with things on the interent people have read, not everyone believes that this happened, and everyone seems to forget about it. Madness: Madness is when you get frustrated, and it could be over the littlest things in life, a relationship, jealousy , a friend, parents, or endless possibilites. It's when you are at home, maybe getting so easily frustrated because you have way too much homework so you cannot go out with a friend. It could be something small, to something big, like your parents getting divroced. I relate this to the real world with relationships. You don't really know what it feels like to get your heart broken, until you actually do, I think. Everyone experiences relationships differently. You could go crazy, mad, because someone you were completley in love with, just broke your heart. People deal with these things every single day, and it is horrible to deal with for most people. Quote: "Idek was on edge, he had trouble restraining himself." Idek went mad easily, over such a little thing, like I said madness could be over. Just because Elie's father wasn't working right, he was beaten by Idek. Most of the time when people go mad, they usually have a story behind why they act this way. |
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Post by Raadha P. on Feb 5, 2014 22:55:31 GMT
To know means to have knowledge of something. This "something" can be true but does not have to be.
In the book, for example they had heard rumours that Europe was planning on bombing the camps to declare war. These prisoners did not exactly know if this was true. This statement that was going around and being told was giving the prisoners hope that they could be free again and all of the torture could be over. On page 60, " Every bomb that hit filled us with joy, gave us renewed confidence". These bombing told them, without words,that they would eventually be free. For my real world example, I use a quote from William Shakespeare. "We know what we are, but know not what we may be." I think this means that we know what is happening now and what has already happened but we will not know what will happen in the future until it happens.
To believe something means to think it is the right thing in your mind and your eyes.I also think it is to think of something in its true sense. A quote that I found was, "Believe that life is worth living and your belief will help create the fact", said by William James. This is used in Elie's case because he really believed that European countries would save them and eventually they bombed the camps which was a sign for him that life would get better.
Madness is when someone is not normal or in other's eyes people are perceived to be mad when they say or do something that does not sound true or is not normal. The quote I found to go along with madness is said by Voltaire, " Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." In this case with Moishe the Beadle, he was saying miserable things when all was well in their lives. They were saying he was mad because they could not believe what he was saying was true because they could not possibly believe that someone could do that.
I agree with Mikayla W.'s post about madness and to sum it up, a quote from her post,"This is why belief was so tricky for Mrs.Schacter and why no one believed her. They were simply not allowed any detail and werent prepared to waste their last bit of energy to try." I think this means that since everyone else didn't believe her, she stopped believing what she saw.
I also agree with Noah W.'s post about knowing and how he explained the detail of the difference in accepting and knowing. I also agree with his comparison to grief of death to the denial of not accepting reality.
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Post by Elliot F on Feb 6, 2014 2:04:36 GMT
What does it mean to know?To know means to have a full understanding and to have a full knowledge of an event, fact or person. For example I know that i was born in 1999 without any doubt and it can be proved. "Not far from us, flames, huge flames, were rising from a ditch. Something was being burned there. A truck drew close and unloaded its hold: small children. Babies! Yes, I did see this, with my own eyes ... children thrown into the flames." this quote would be knowing because he knows for 100% it is true. What does it mean to believe? To believe is to think about something that may or not be true or provable. If you believe you truly think your thought or "fact" is accurate or belief. For example religion it has possibility of being true and possibility of being not true. "Not far from us, flames, huge flames, were rising from a ditch. Something was being burned there. A truck drew close and unloaded its hold: small children. Babies! Yes, I did see this, with my own eyes ... children thrown into the flames." This quotes means to believe because they might believe where there going is good or bad but they do not know for sure. What does it mean to be "mad" (crazy)? To be mad or crazy is when you think or believe something that nobody else does or that is proven incorrect. For example it is proven that dinosaurs are extinct and you would be mad to think they do not. "Look at the fire! Look at the flames! Over there!" this quote represents madness because the person saying this is around no fire or flames and it can be proven there is not so she's mad. |
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Post by elliot f on Feb 6, 2014 2:06:13 GMT
Knowing: Stating that you know something is real or something has happened that you have an eye witness account or actual objects or places of the account or fact. "Jews, listen to me." she cried. "I see a fire! I see flames, huge flames!" This is an eye witness account of fire in the distance of the crematorium Belief: It is like what you have thought of what you have known to be true your whole life but don't have evidence of your belief. Like believing in god, or santa claus. Madness: Going over and beyond belief. "She is hallucinating because she is thirsty, poor woman... That's why she speaks of flames devouring her..." This is very well thought out jp -elliot |
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Post by elliot f on Feb 6, 2014 2:09:55 GMT
great connections lila s
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