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Post by Anika R. on Feb 5, 2014 2:21:19 GMT
Regan and I had similar thoughts on how to define knowing, believing, and pure madness. I didn't think of believing as religion- related for some reason. It wasn't my first thought. But, I understand how religion and faith tie into believing. I liked your quote for Knowing because it clearly shows that the Nazi people were forcing the Jews to say they were something that they weren't and they knew that. That is why they had the argument, after all. What does it mean to know?“Fifteen.”
“No. You’re eighteen.”
“But I’m not,” I said. “I’m fifteen.”
“Fool. Listen to what I say.”To know means to have knowledge of or understand information/fact. For example with the quote from the book the veteran inmate knew what would happened if he told the SS his real age. I think that Mr. Wiesel and his father were rather lucky that someone told them what to do and how to act because they had no clue what was happening, up until a couple of hours ago they haven’t even heard of Auschwitz. A real life example of knowing something is that my B4 class is Language A with Mrs. Hoffman. What does it mean to believe?To believe is to have faith in someone or something. When you believe you don’t necessarily have to have facts to back you up because that what you want to think is true is just that what you think your opinion. In the real world an example of believing is my religion, faith, and beliefs in God and Jesus. In the book his dad sticks to his belief in God and still believes that He will help them out of it all. “May His name be celebrated and sanctified…” whispered my father pg 33What does it mean to be mad?To be mad means that you are mentally insane, disturbed, or demented. I think when people go from being perfectly normal to going mad something in drastic most likely accrued. The book gives a good example with Mrs.S she lost her husband and other children even though she stills has one with her, she can no longer mentally or emotionally take it all so she is starting to turn herself mad thinking about it all. I would say that a real world example of this is schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. These are prime examples because with both mental illness people tend to hallucinations and have extreme mood swings at any given time. “Look! Look at this fire! This terrible fire! Have mercy on me!”pg 25 |
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Post by Regan White B4 on Feb 5, 2014 2:24:09 GMT
I really like your definition of madness how say not knowing reality from fantasy because most mentally ill people don't know the difference just like Mrs.S What does it mean to know?: Definition: Knowing is having evidence of something. This means that you have evidence of it or that you've seen it for yourself. Quote: " If someone managed to escape, they would be shot." They knew that if anyone tried to escape, they would be shot because they had either seen it or other people's actions gave them evidence of it. They also knew this because of the way the officers were treating them that they wouldn't hesitate to kill any of the Jews. Real World Example: We know things that has happened in the past such as wars, major events, etc because we have evidence from it such as pictures, old buildings, museums, etc. This evidence lets us know that the event happened. For example, the holocaust. We know that it happened because of things like Night and many other books as well as pictures, witnesses, etc. What does it mean to believe?: Definition: To believe in something is not exactly having evidence of it but you have faith in the situation or thing. Quote: "The conditions were good. Families would not be separated" This was in context to the concentration camp. They didn't have any evidence that the conditions were good or that families wouldn't be separated but they believed it because they wanted to be true. But as they found more and more evidence to prove that it wasn't true, they started to believe less and less until they saw it for themselves. Real World Example: When kids are little they believe in things like Santa or The Tooth Fairy. They don't have any evidence that those things are real, they just have faith in them. What does it mean to be "mad" (crazy)?: Definition: Madness is when someone doesn't know the difference between reality and fantasy so they don't have any evidence whatsoever and they not only believe it, they do more then just believe it and they take action to try to prove something impossible or unrealistic. Quote: "I see fire! I see flames, huge flames!" This is when all of the Jews were in the cattle cars. The woman started shouting and going on about a fire which no one could see except her. She took action and tried to prove it by telling everyone about it but she had absolutely no evidence which made her look mad to everyone else. Real World Example: People who have schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is when people have can't tell the difference between what's real and what's not. The things that they believe has no evidence to it but they are convinced it's real. |
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Post by Anika R. on Feb 5, 2014 2:26:42 GMT
Knowing: Knowing is to be aware of something true, that you have strong influences to sense it's true. I know that my birthday is July 28, because that is a true provable fact. "'Jews, look! Look at the fire! Look at the flames!' And as the train stopped, this time we saw flames rising from a tall chimney into a black sky." This quote from the book represents knowing because she says something that is definitely true, she makes a statement that can be proven with evidence. Believing: Believing means to think something that doesn't have evidence at the moment, or something that you think is real/true that can be questioned. I believe that my friends are loyal, this proves my definition because there is nothing I can do to get the exact truth but I am opinionated to think they are genuine. "'Mother is still a young woman,' my father once said. 'She must be in a labor camp. And Tzipora, she is a big girl now. She must too be in a camp...'" This represents my quote because they are opinionated to hope that this is true but they have no evidence or way of knowing whether it is fact or fiction. Madness: Madness means you are hallucinating; you cannot tell what is true or not because everything is out of sorts and hard to understand/grasp, and unbelievable. I think the movie Oblivion was madness, because the plot was often shocking and I was often unable the understand what was true or false. "In front of us, those flames. In the air, the smell of burning flesh." This quote from Night represented my definition of madness because it contains experiences that you would never, ever expect to be real, Elie often thought he was in a nightmare and he would awaken any minute, but all of these bizarre, unthinkable things were happening in reality and were still being questioned. |
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Post by Florence L on Feb 5, 2014 2:30:36 GMT
To know: To know is to believe in something that has been proven to be true. However, although you can know something is true because your witnessed it, others may not believe you because you don't have enough evidence to prove that what you say is the truth.
Quote: Moishe the Beadle was among the first deportees from Sighet. He witnessed the Nazis exterminating the other deportees and escaped to warn others about it. But nobody believed him because he was the only one who lived to tell this tale, he had no evidence, and he was the kind of person who would come off as reliable. "But people not only refused to believe his tales, they refused to listen. Some even insinuated that he only wanted their pity, that he was imagining things. Others flatly said that he had gone mad." pg. 7
Real World Example: In a court case, one must have sufficient evidence for the jury to believe them. The evidence can be photos, recordings, other witnesses, etc. Without evidence, you have no way of convincing others that your account of events is true. Your story would be dismissed as empty words.
To believe: To believe is to think that something is true, whether it is true or not. A belief does not have to be proven to be true like knowledge. Belief is also often based on the preferences of someone, meaning that people sometimes believe in only what they like.
Quote: Elie and his father are in denial about the fate of Elie's mother and Tzipora. They know inside themselves that their family is very likely dead, but pretend that their family is alive, afraid that one of them is unwilling to face the truth. "'Mother is still a young woman...She must be in a labor camp. And Tzipora, she is a big girl now. She too must be in a camp...' How we would have like to believe that. We pretended, for what if one of us still did believe?"
Real world example: Belief can be blind, ignoring proof that disproves it. For example, people once believed that the sun revolves around Earth. These people never thought to try to prove it scientifically. When it was scientifically shown that the Earth revolves around the sun, they refused to try to understand why this science was accurate and wrote it off as madness.
To be mad: To be mad is to be unconscious of the real world and be stuck in one’s own world. “Your world” is reality to you, you believe that what you see in your world is real.
Quote: Mrs. Schachter was stuck in her own mind when she began yelling about the flames. Her screams were capable of inducing terror, and strangely her “madness” had a prophetic sense to it. She also fell silent as soon as everyone realized there were flames which leads to the question did she somehow know what was going to happen and tried to warn everyone or was this simply a coincidence? “’She is mad, poor woman…’ Someone had placed a damp rag on her forehead. But she nevertheless continued to scream: ‘Fire! I see a fire!’” pg. 25
Real world example: Mental illness is a real world example. Some people contract certain conditions and diseases that give them hallucinations that only they can see. One such condition is schizophrenia. Madness (or insanity) can also be caused by traumatic events that break one’s resolve to move on and pushes someone over the edge so that they escape from reality into their own minds (in Mrs. Schachter’s case she just could not move on after her husband and son were taken away).
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Post by April V on Feb 5, 2014 2:34:29 GMT
To know means to understand, be aware of something, or have an idea of something. In page 29, it states, "I didn't know that this was the moment in time and the place where I was leaving my mother and Tzipora forever." This shows that he didn't understand or even had any clue or was even aware that this was the last time he was going to see his mother, and his sister forever. When you learn something, you gain knowledge, or some understanding of that idea. For example you know some things in school, like what you learn in your classes.
To believe means to have accept something and think that it is true, to have an opinion, or have faith in something. In page 30, it states, "Hey, kid, how old are you?" The man interrogating me was an inmate. I could not see his face, but his voice was weary and warm. "Fifteen." "No. You're eighteen." "But I'm not," I said. "I'm fifteen." "Fool. Listen to what I say." Then he asked my father, who answered: "I'm fifty." "No." The man now sounded angry. "Not fifty. You're forty. Do you hear? Eighteen and forty." The person wanted them to believe and lie that they were older than what they actually were. For example, sometimes you would want to assume or believe that you did good on a test.
To be mad (crazy) means that you are insane or mentally ill. In page 26, it states, "The fire, over there!" "She was pointing somewhere in the distance, always the same place. No one felt like beating her anymore. The heat, the thirst, the stench, the lack of air, were suffocating us." This happens now and then in the book, each shouting there is a fire, every once in a while. She is probably seriously mentally ill, because she is seeing things that really aren't there, or hallucinating. But it turns out that it is real. For example, you go mad if you are so crazy for something, or very fond of something (like shoes or something that you really like. You go crazy over it).
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Post by Lucy K. on Feb 5, 2014 2:37:44 GMT
To know is to grasp the concept or facts being said. You don't really know any further information or sometime do not bother to look into any detail. For example in the book, The Jews heard stories about the camps from escapees but didn't believe them or didn't want to at least. The people didn't talk to anyone about it or even think about it any further. It was just an unexplained, non believed rumor to the people. To believe is a step further than knowledge. To believe is to grasp the concept and facts, and then truly understand what those things mean and stand behind them 100%. If u strongly believe in it nothing is stopping you from going deeper into the subject and really believing what you see/are told. For example in the book, Elie and Mrs.Schacter are preaching what they believe and are trying to make others believe. The difference between the two thoughts are that Elie's is more detailed and more in depth. To many this is the base of belief and truth. To be mad is a whole other concept. To me, being mad is getting to a point in your thoughts and words that you can not even comprehend what happening in your mind yourself. It becomes the case that your ideas and thoughts are all bundled up and you cant express them in a way that other people would understand. This is why belief was so tricky for Mrs.Schacter and why no one believed her. They were simply no allowed any detail and werent prepared to waste their last bit of energy to try. You say "To believe is a step further than knowledge. To believe is to grasp the concept and facts, and then truly understand what those things mean and stand behind them 100%." What if belief is a whole different thing. Is to know to believe, or is to believe to know? Could you also say that Mrs. Schachter is mad and Elie is the knowledgeable one? |
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Post by Ashley B on Feb 5, 2014 2:43:44 GMT
To Know: to contain information or knowledge about a certain topic, thing or event.Or to be aware that something is actually happening. A quote from the book is "The journey had just begun and I already felt to seek". This is to know because he know that the journey to death is beginning. He also knows that he feels week because he is experiencing the weakness. A real life example is "I know how to ad numbers". This is to know because i learned to add numbers and i have the knowledge to do this.
To Believe: to agree and accept that something is true. To hold on to something you believe. A quote from the book is "it was as thought she was possessed by an evil spirit". This is to believe because Ellie Wiesel does not know that Mrs. Schachter is possessed by an evil spirit. They just believe that she is possessed because she is acting so crazy. A real life example of to believe would be I believe that it is going to snow tomorrow. I don't actually know that its going to snow. I just strongly believe that it will happen.
To be mad: to be mad means to go insane. you think and hear things that aren't actually there. An example of this would be Mrs. Schanchter thinking there was a fire. There was no fire and she was just insane and imagining the fire. A real life example of being mad could be mentally unstable people. there could be some people in mental hospitals that think they see or here unrealistic things.
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Post by Reese k on Feb 5, 2014 2:46:56 GMT
Knowing is a fact. You know that the Sea-hawks won the super bowl. It is a fact, there were people there, they have recordings of it and it was live. There were people that were there. You would not know what your friend was doing when the Superbowl had started he could have been watching the game, but you would not know that for a fact unless he recorded him watching the safety on the very first play. A quote the Eliezer says is I knew nothing about them. His family never told him about them, they may have been lying about this, but he had never seen them face to face and never seen any pictures of them.Belief is what religion, you will never know if there is a heaven or if there is a god. You believe it because it seems right but you are always going to be skeptical on it. Eliezer says Mrs. Schachter yells fire fire Eliezer states, we had believed her again if only for an instant. This believing is a signal of hope , like no one will believe that it will snow at 63 degrees. Madness is mental, its all in your head because even if people look funny does not mean there crazy, your just being a stereotype, like what Mrs. Schachter was seeing, it was all in her mind.
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Post by Ashley B on Feb 5, 2014 2:50:37 GMT
To know is to grasp the concept or facts being said. You don't really know any further information or sometime do not bother to look into any detail. For example in the book, The Jews heard stories about the camps from escapees but didn't believe them or didn't want to at least. The people didn't talk to anyone about it or even think about it any further. It was just an unexplained, non believed rumor to the people. To believe is a step further than knowledge. To believe is to grasp the concept and facts, and then truly understand what those things mean and stand behind them 100%. If u strongly believe in it nothing is stopping you from going deeper into the subject and really believing what you see/are told. For example in the book, Elie and Mrs.Schacter are preaching what they believe and are trying to make others believe. The difference between the two thoughts are that Elie's is more detailed and more in depth. To many this is the base of belief and truth. To be mad is a whole other concept. To me, being mad is getting to a point in your thoughts and words that you can not even comprehend what happening in your mind yourself. It becomes the case that your ideas and thoughts are all bundled up and you cant express them in a way that other people would understand. This is why belief was so tricky for Mrs.Schacter and why no one believed her. They were simply no allowed any detail and weren't prepared to waste their last bit of energy to try. you did a good job of explaining- but i think that your "to know" definition is a little off. To know that something is happening you need to have evidence such as experiencing the thing or seeing it to know it. to know something you need to have no doubt in your mind whether or not it will happen. |
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Post by Reese K on Feb 5, 2014 2:52:39 GMT
Knowing something is understanding and comprending a certain thing or subject. "I will never forget that night" is a quote about never forgetting that moment, knowing what happened. A real world example is that I know that the holocaust is a real event. Believing something is thinking something is real but when it might not be real. "God is testing us" is a quote that they believe that a supernatural power is causing the pain and "trials" they are facing. Religion is a real world example because people believe in a supernatural power that may or may not exist. Being mad is believing in something that is physical and not being there or not believed/accepted by people. "Look at the fire! Look at the flames! Over there!" is a quote by the mad women because there were no flames fire or anything of that nature but this may be a prediction Crystal Night because of the fire reference. A real world example is a insanasylum because of the insane people saying things that are not there or are not sane I think madness is in the brain its mental, because if it was physical you could touch it, feel it, smell it, hear it, and taste it. If everyone sees it and its 3d it actually there, this is all in Mrs. Schachter's head |
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Post by Reese K on Feb 5, 2014 2:57:47 GMT
What Does It Mean to Know? To know means that your thoughts are right and they are supported with evidence. In the book, Moishe the Beadle had come back to warn the town that the Nazis were torturing the Jews and killing them. Moishe saw this with his own eyes and had cared about others so he escaped to tell them. Quote from Book (page 7): "You don't understand," he said in despair. "You cannot understand. I was saved miraculously. I succeeded in coming back. Where did I get my strength? I wanted to return to Sighet to describe to you my death so that you might ready yourselves while there is still time. Life? I no longer care to live. I am alone. But I wanted to come back to warn you. Only no one is listening to me ..." Nobody believed him until it was too late. One real world example of knowing would be that most people know their names and their birthday. It can be proven with a birth certificate. What Does It Mean to Believe? To believe means that you trust someone or something to be right. An example from the book would be that the Jews had been listening to the London Radio. Book quote (page 7-8): "London radio, which we listened to every evening, announced encouraging news: the daily bombings of Germany and Stalingrad, the preparation of the second front. And so we, Jews of Sighet, waited for better days that surely were to come soon." That is what all their knowledge of the world came from. The London radio was basically feeding the Jews propaganda and potentially making the Jews believe that the Nazis were trying to make their lives better. I real world example would be believing a friend. The trust between two REAL friends is important. Sometimes you just have to believe your friend that what is happening is true or correct. Like if you need a copy of homework because you were absent a day in school, you would need to trust your friend to not give you the wrong thing. What Does It Mean to Be Mad? To be mad would be going crazy at every single aspect of the world in your life. You would just be extremely crazy. People would not trust you with secrets or information. People may think you are hallucinating or having a spasm or something. In the book, the lady (Mrs. Schacter) really thought there was a fire. Book quote: "She is mad, poor woman ... Someone had placed a damp rag on her forehead. But she nevertheless continued to scream: Fire! I see a fire!" In the end, yes there was a fire, but in the wagon car or train car everybody thought she was mad and had lost her mind because everything in er life had just turned upside down (she was separated with her husband). A real life example would be in an event like a huge tsunami or earthquake. People may go into temporary shock or madness because of everything that they may have been destroyed or lost in a split second (like their family members, house, friends, valuables, money, etc...) . You said mrs. Schachter was mad/ insane. Mrs schachter wasnt always mad or inasane, and you know that, it clearly states that in the book. You said Mad is going crazy at every single aspect of your life, Mrs. Schachter was not crazy before her husband and other son were deported |
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Post by Mj Shoemaker on Feb 5, 2014 3:10:13 GMT
To know, you had to know something for sure and it was most likely true. "you will be burned! burned to cinder! turned to ashes!" They knew that he must have been telling the truth because they could see what was happening and they actually saw people being thrown into flames and being burned alive. Pg.30
To believe is to have trust in something and not always seeing it. "We had fallen in a trap, up to our necks." They had all knew that they had fallen into a trap and they did not know whether it was good or bad to be in this cart. and they knew that they might not ever get out. so they believed that they might not ever get out of this cart.
to be mad, Is when someone is saying things that you don't think is real because they are bizarre and its almost impossible to believe them. "Jews listen to me, i see fire ! i see flames, huge flames" This is when mrs. Schachter had gone crazy and started screaming look fire, but no one wanted to believe her because they could not see the fire or smell the fire, so they all just thought that she was going mad from dehydration but when they had arrived to there destination she screamed look a fire! and there was actually a fire this time. so they just didn't want to believe her at first because she was turning into a mad person so who would want to ever believe someone that is mad. pg.25
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Post by Dean A on Feb 5, 2014 3:14:05 GMT
Davis F
Can you put more detail on the difference between knowing and belief because they are kinda the same
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Post by Chloe G. on Feb 5, 2014 3:14:19 GMT
Noah W. said:
Real World Example: Schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder in which it is hard or impossible at times to tell between what is real and not real; this is due to very powerful hallucinations. This is a good example of what being "Crazy" or "Mad" can be; even if the person is a genius, if they have a mental disorder such as this, they can't even tell what the actual facts are, and so their "world" is shaped by their hallucinations *and* reality at once
By using these real world examples, your responses were strongly supported. This is a great example and you really went into detail!
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Post by Dean A on Feb 5, 2014 3:19:03 GMT
Brenna
I really like your definition of madness it is very clear
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